The Secret Society of Lathe Trolls

Steve E. · Last edited by Steve E. on Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:05 pm; edited 4 times in total

Hi. My name is Steve Espinola. I started this site because of my growing obsession with the art and craft of record cutting. I noticed a lack of focused information on this topic on the web. As I talked to more and more people who seemed to be asking the same questions as I --and as I began sharing and getting knowledge -- I felt it would be useful to create a meeting place for all this brain, heart, ear and physical activity.

The title of this site comes from a man named Twig Harper, who is a founding member of the band Nautical Almanac. He mentioned such a society, jokingly, in an interview on this page:

http://www.kempa.com/blog/archives/000121.html

(THAT's a great site, by the way!!)

I thought it was funny, and it made me long for such a society. So here it is, and you are now a part of it!

Nautical Almanac is a band who truly embody my personal preferences towards lathe experimentation; they have gone far further with it than I. What they do is beautiful. Here are some examples of their work:

http://www.heresee.com/twigharper/lathe/lathemain.htm

http://www.heresee.com/hs39lathedwhale.htm

http://www.heresee.com/hs50diamondlathe.htm

The expected emphasis at this forum is on artists, hobbyists, and experimentalists, because that's what I am. I am truly a novice. I am in awe of all the different components required to sucessfully etch good sound into a recording surface.

My current rig is a 1940's Wilcox-Gay Recordio, designed for amateur home use and A.M. radio dubbing. I can only record 78's on it. I am trying to figure out how to record 78's for my 1920's acoustic handcranked Brunswick Ultona (Victrola-style player) that won't wear out after 1 play. Obviously, these are not the standard concerns of a record cutter who is aiming towards master stampers for a run of LPs or singles.

On the other hand, I welcome professional, experienced record cutters. You not only have a place here, you have a place of honor!!

Someone just alerted me that there is another site devoted to such matters. It appears to be a forum for more "professional" cutters. It is at:

http://www.andybeemusic.de/

I just joined that site. I have no desire to compete with it, but as little is happening over there I decided to continue setting this up as a more anarchic, messy doppelganger. I encourage people to sign up there, too! Maybe the sites will begin to play off each other in a good way.

[update in April 2008...the Andy B. forum has disappeared, but I'm leaving his link up in case you want to hire him.]

I am new to this board administration thing. Over time I may start coming up with guidelines to keep things civil and fun. My only rule right now is: Please remember that you are talking to real people who have feelings, intelligence and experience. They may have opinions and outlooks that differ from yours. Learn from them, even if you disagree. Be mutually respectful. The golden rule, basically. Harassment won't be tolerated and will get you zapped.

If you are having trouble with someone on the board, let me know about it right away by Private Message.

That's it. Start posting, and have fun!

Perisphere · Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:40 pm Post subject: Hi!

What a site! All my life, the one thing I wanted to be was a disc mastering engineer. I was fascinated as a kid with some 78 rpm acetate discs with my dad playing on them, and wondering how they were made, etc. Dad said the machine looked like a record player, except the arm was much bigger.... The first disc recording outfit I ever saw first hand was in a recording studio in 1972 when I was 8 1/2 years old. It was a whopper: a Neumann AM 32 with a Westrex 3D cutter, etc. I thought, now THAT's the machine I want to know how to operate! Not long afterward I got into fooling around with some crazy stuff--el primitivo cutting heads made out of such weirdness as a transistor radio 2" speaker wedged into a plastic Solo cup, with a sharpened sewing-machine needle Super Glued onto the thin bottom of the cup (think diaphragm there). I'd scratch a second or two of racket into the dead wax of records and you could hear something....sort of. My two hands hovering over the BSR record changer was the 'lathe feed' (talk about SIC!) Did that when I was about 10. Did some fooling around with Reynolds Wrap wrapped around LPs then too. Tried to make a wax recording blank with blocks of sealing wax and a pizza pan when I was 12 but I couldn't pull it off.

Concocted something I called Enamelite when I was about 15. I had a somewhat better home-brew head by then made from a wiped-out Victor Orthophonic soundbox (replacing its diaphragm with another transistor radio speaker), mounted on its original tapered arm, that I could guide carefully over a plastic-coated piece of posterboard (the glossy side) that had a carefully-applied coat of wet enamel spray paint on it. I could do about a minute of material at 78 rpm with this process. I recorded into the wet paint, but waited at least 24 hours before playing the discs back! What examples survive sound just as bad as they did back in 1979. (Note--these won't stand up to any talking machine's sound box....but work ok with modern 78 rpm pickups such as Grado's or a Shure.) With carefully sharpened steel styli I've managed to cut grooves into some kinds of ceramic bathroom tile, with interesting results.

Got a Wilcox-Gay Recordio 1J13 'Recordette 3' (it's the later 3 speed version of the 1J10) in 1986 but the crystal pickup was dead. Not knowing if/where the thing could have been restored I tried to rig my own crystal cutter head out of parts of a crystal mike element and bits of the dead pickup. Had some fun with cutting on shaved-down styrene 45s with it though.

One thing I've learned is that you can't get full quality from any crystal cutter. For one thing, signal peaks will always be severely compressed/limited due to the crystal reaching mechanical limits of its ability to flex in accordance with the input signal. Inherently non-linear. (It can be argued that this saved the inept operators of yore from REALLY screwing things up through overcutting.) Also, the frequency response is pretty limited too; you might get 6000 or 7000 tops out of them, and nowhere near RIAA characteristic....not even at 78 rpm. (Yes, I've tried to boost all that via graphic EQ but to no avail.) Later in '86 I managed to score a Presto 1-C cutter mounted on what looks like the arm from a Presto model Y recorder. Unfortunately I've never found such a machine or the long-shank styli for it. (Now I know where I can get styli but the machine eludes me.) I expect that cutter would blow any crystal cutter away. But that's for someday when, methinks.....

Anyway, this is awesome! Anything I can do to help, let me know.... Smile

Steve E. · Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:58 am Post subject:

Welcome aboard, "Perisphere"!!! I will follow up on some of your very helpful comments soon. Smile

Aussie0zborn · Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 63 Location: Australia

You mean there is actually a name for people like us??? Lathe Troll ??? Hmmm... I might just get to like it.

These are the lathes I have owned in order of purchase:

Presto 6N with Grampian mono cutterhead (still have this one)
Neumann AM32B with Westrex 3D-II stereo cutterhead and valve amps
Neumann VMS62 with HAECO SC1 stereo cutterhead and custom amps
Neumann VMS70 / SX74 / SAL74 / SP75 / MT75

With all the interest in vinyl these days I hope to get back into it. Need to work on the Presto as I have never really used it but would prefer to do it properly with a late model Neumann system. I guess that makes me a troll until then!! Embarassed

I have various cutterheads for sale - see Classifieds section.

dhersk · Joined: 03 Jun 2006 Posts: 4

I discovered this site about a week ago and was really impressed. I started recording and mastering discs when I was 15 and was in the business until age 24.

I started with a Wilcox Gay Recordette, then presto 6N with Grampian, then Neuman with Grampian.

I tried to turn my hobby into a business, but then it ceased to be fun, so I gave it up and went on to other things. I still receive the recording magazines and keep up on new equipment for fun.

My label was Gaity and if you check ebay under Gaity or Gaity records you will see two albums by Norton Records called Bloodshot which contain my old recordings.

I did free lance work for Sid Frey who had Audio Fidelity records. He and the label have passed on. It was the first guy to release a stereo disc and everyone adopted the Westrex system.

I currently own a large childrens music library which I license to various companies, and have digital recordings of some of the greats of rock n roll. These are new recordings, not old mono remastered. Because of legal complications these will never see the light of day.

Thats about it, looking forward to continuing to post in this forum. If any of you wish to write to me directly my email address is dhersk@hutman.net.

ArchaicRecords · Joined: 03 Mar 2006 Posts: 1

I did some experiments when I was around 14.
I had a lo-fi Garrard ceramic-cartridge turntable, which was
hard on records, the weight was heavy and the needle ruined
good records. I had some flexis with blank sides and a
16-RPM record my granddad got from a blind society which
has 30 seconds of silence between the cuts. I plugged the
turntable into the output of a receiver and experimented
cuttting shallow embossed grooves into the blank sides of
the flexis, and actually got a spooky-sounding voice imprinted
into the silent grooves of the 16rpm (which I recorded at
various speeds) (but I didn't have much to say in the
microphone at the time, and my brother watching wouldn't
say a word). That still plays to this day.
_________________
archaicrecords.com

flashbk13 · Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 31 Location: Ontario, Cal.

Hi Steve and all here Smile

I have been here for about 1 week and just realized that I never introduced myself. I got so excited about this forum, that I just "dug in"! (i'm the one with that unknown antique Paramount lathe). Anyway, i'm Rick Force, 48, from Ontario, Cal. (the "other" Ontario). I work for CBS here in LA as an "on air Technical Director" (nothing to do with disc recording, unless you count the bunches of HHD's we record on for our on air commercial and programming servers! Laughing

). I love analog audio (not too keen on digital). I collect antique audio, film and arcade games/ jukeboxes. I bought my lathe to record my own 78's for my 1949 AMI C (which I read in here that others also own and want to do the same thing). This is my second lathe (I used to own a ROK Challenger but got rid of it 'cause I didn't need it at that time, doh!). After reading some of the replies to my "can anyone identify this lathe" thread, it sounds like I may have to either sell or trade that one for say, a Presto N series, as mine may only cut 33 (please see that thread) and I need 78. We'll see how it goes if I can get it to run. Thank you steve for this site, Rick.

tsullivan · Joined: 02 Jul 2006 Posts: 27

Rick,
With that position you are in, you must get to meet all the famous TV people. Got any interesting stories to tell?

I guess I never introduced myself either. My name is Tom Sullivan, I am 59, and live in Dayton Ohio. Unlike a few others here, I am not involved professionally in the recording or entertainment industry. I am simply a gadget freak who likes to play with unusual toys. I joined this forum about 2 months ago when I bought a Rek-O-Kut Imperial II cutter and amplifier off of ebay. I have yet to cut my first record, I am still trying to learn whatever I can about this. This is something I've always wanted to do since I was a kid. I also collect jukeboxes, as well as antique radios and phonographs, and my jukebox inventory consists of a Rockola 1426 made in 1946, and a Antique Apparatus "Bubbler" made in 1986, but styled like a '40's Wurlitzer. It actually has a modern Rowe-AMI 200 selection 45 rpm player from a Rowe R-88 jukebox.

Of course at my age, I grew up with records, first 78's, then all 3 speeds. I have suffered the trama of having my entertainment formats switched on me throughout my life, starting out with 78's, then 45's and 33's, tapes, 8-tracks- cassettes, Betamax, VHS, laserdisc, CD, and DVD. And we are about to have a few more tossed at us, HD-DVD, Blue-Ray, will it ever end?

Oh and I almost forgot i-pods and the like. For an old guy that likes to fool around with old technology, I've got to admit, I really like my i-pod. Its just really neat to be able to carry around my entire record collection in the palm of my hand. The problem is the time it takes to get all those records in the darn thing. But one day in the not so distant future, I know I will probably have to move into a "retirement" community, and won't have the room to take all this stuff with me, so at least I will have my music on my i-pod, which is better than not at all.

Its so easy and cheap to burn a CD with 80 minutes of music that we forget the steps we went through to get to that point. I can plainly see that cutting records will be a lot different than burning CD's.

Tom

Rhumba Beatnik · Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 2 Location: USA

thank you for creating this site, i also have a home owner model 1947 Packard-Bell record lathe which i have been experimenting with for about 5 years. When i got the machine someone had taken all the original electronics out of it and the original microphone was gone, i jury rigged my own power source and i use a RCA 44 that my friend has(its a lot better than the original)
since i am a musician by trade i have alot of friends that play music so i can always get people who want to cut a record( laquer covered aluminum discs)
i am real lucky to have a source for all the supplies needed to record (needles, blank laquer masters, advice) in my home town, its called History of recorded sound, Len Horowitz is the owner and he knows a lot about direct to disc recording.
Again thank you for making this forum [/list]

countfive · Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 1 Location: Minneapolis

Just caught wind of this site a few days ago and I must say I'm glad that exists! Over the last decade (at least) I've seen my own passion for the music world slowly dim. But my growing vinyl collection and the help of this forum things are getting much brighter! I won't bore anyone with the details with how I ended up here, but I've been obsessing lately and this site has been a valuable resource. So I must thank Steve and all of the vet posters on this forum for guiding me along. I'm definitely green to this world but I hope to learn a lot from everyone, acquire my own lathe shortly and be able to actively partake in the discussions.

I'll try not to ask any redundant questions, I've read most the posts today(I'm sick and have time to kill) but I may have a few things I need to clear up.

If any of you lathe trolls are from the upper midwest, shoot me an email I'd like to see one of these in person if I ever get the chance. Until then I'll scour the forum and ebay to hopefully set myself up. Or if any of you have anything of importance or interest to fill me in on(like, "before you do this, make sure you know this." etc.) send me an email, it should be listed in my profile.

Thanks again, looking forward to being a future lathe troll!